Kick Conversion

[oldironnow]

Kick start conversion for Sportster.

I seem to have discovered that a Sportster can have a kicker added to it.

What're the Cyclevisor-opinions of a kicker option that seems to drive through the output gear.




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[motogrady]

I dunno.
Can a guy still push start it?
I mean, do they have efi?
I’ve been told if a bike runs efi, when the battery is dead the bike is dead. No kicking, no pushing will get them going.

If they run efi, kinda moot to me.  Kickstart that is.  

[oldironnow]

I'm just exploring ideas for the Buell.

[motogrady]

oldironnow wrote

I'm just exploring ideas for the Buell.

That’s cool.  

I saw a Buell a few days back on Clist. 3 k is what the guy wanted.  

I was really tempted.

[hacksaw]

My friends wife has a Buell she has to just about give it away to get rid of it.
I hope the one you saw was 3000 obo.

Anyway . There are some difference in the motor mounts and a believe the castings on buells vs Sportsters. I don’t know exactly what they are. But in any case the kicker arm has to clear foot pegs and whatever .

I see the figment highlighted here is for 2007 and up . Which concerns me because late sportsters don’t have trap door access to the transmission.
Buell kept the trap door .
Keep in mind evo sportsters pre 2004 the master bolts to the cover. So any swap there would require moving tge master /foot peg/brake pedal
As you see , the interest here would be chopper guys whom are hardtailing a sportster and using forward controls.

HD discontinued kickers on XL’s in the early 70’s?
Bronsons sportster was converted to kicker becz production people thought , and in those days likely correctly , that people would consider Bronson a wimp with estart.

Now what kit would fit a Buell? The 5 speed mechanicals “91 to ? .  The problem here is idk how much the cover is needed to support the kicker shaft . And if so , if they can be bolted to Buell cases .

IM(not so)HO
A Buell ain’t worth the $500 kit.

I believe there are some EIgnition kits available to allow push starts . What’s available fir HD idk. But I had Boyer electronic ignition on my BSA and it was kick start .

[Fatfatboy]

Interesting.
 For race application less weight or just the cool factor?
In a racing application I would think it would take a hefty fella to kickstart a high performance sporty.
One of those wheel starters would seem the way to go over the leg cranker.

Looks like it’s available for 91-2003, 04-05 and 07 and up.
The 04-05 models had horrible carb issues. I’m thinking kickback on those. Just make sure your health insurance is up to date.
91-03 makes since but I’m not sure on the flubber mounts.
They make for ugly choppers.

I could see this on an old school chopper or bobber for the youngins.

I rode a kick only ironhead for ten years when I was young but now, no thank you. My knees can’t take the kickback.
I own a 74 XLCH that was kick only until someone added a starter to it.
I think I only used the kicker once.
Give me the button please.

[Mad4TheCrest]

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[motogrady]

A

Mad4TheCrest wrote

There are times when I would love to have a kickstart bike again. Fond (but long ago and vague) memories of kicking my little 90cc 2-stroke to life as a kid. I almost spent the crazy money Yamaha wanted for its most recent incarnation of the SR400 just to experience the kick again. Common sense prevailed. 😉

As for the comment about efi not allowing bump starts, I am curious about whether that is true or not - I see racers bump starting their bikes still and surely those are efi. Anyone have the definitive answer?

Back to you OI - although I can really sympathize with that kickstart dream, I wonder how hard it would be to kick a Buell to life - fairly high compression on that big twin, right?

They way it was explained to me, the efi kickstart thing that is, when the electric is off to the fuel pump it stops.  When you turn the key back on the pump starts back up, pressurizing the fuel so when the motor turns, fuel starts squirting out of the nozzles into the cylinders.  No pressure, no squirt, no ride.  

I heard there are a few efi trials bikes, with heavy flywheels, (see Montesa)that can be kicked.
The weight of the flywheel is enough to spin the motor enough as to get the electric flowing and the efi squirting.

Maybe push starting will work, efi wise.  Seems to me if you pushed enough, like enough to get the lights coming on, maybe so.

Now there's a test one of you guys could run.
Leave the lights on overnight and drain an efi bike battery dead.
Then try pushing it down a hill like an old Bultaco or something.  

The first Cyclevisor.com tech article.  Lol.......Kevin who?

I'd do it, but eh, my bikes are all Venturi!

*fun fact.....the Kawasaki Mach 3, the H1, with electronic ignition, could be started by hand.  Each cylinder fired at 120 degrees. No big bang there.  Walk up to it, turn the key on, gas on, reach over and down, grab the Kickstarter, and do a Ford Model T hand crank impression, and poof, it's running.

[hacksaw]

No. Not really.
You are assuming Buells are efi.
I dare say the Harley motored ones are not and don’t have fuel pumps.

My latest shovelhead has a dyna ignition and I could kick that bike over by hand.

So I don’t see the problem here with Buell and kickers. I assume buells don’t run points anyway .
It’s a fitment  issue . Not a fuel delivery issue. I assume in theory a kicker if it would work on a sportster would work on a sportster powered buell

[hacksaw]

Oh . My mach3 was a bitch to start .
Tried all kinds of plugs. Remember the gapless ngk’s?
Mine was electronic . Kawasaki trying to keep the price under a grand.
You coukd get E ignition with drum front brake
Or points and a disc.
So the faster model couldn’t stop .
Wonderful , eh?

[oldironnow]

hacksaw wrote

My friends wife has a Buell she has to just about give it away to get rid of it.
I hope the one you saw was 3000 obo.

Anyway . There are some difference in the motor mounts and a believe the castings on buells vs Sportsters. I don’t know exactly what they are. But in any case the kicker arm has to clear foot pegs and whatever .

I see the figment highlighted here is for 2007 and up . Which concerns me because late sportsters don’t have trap door access to the transmission.
Buell kept the trap door .
Keep in mind evo sportsters pre 2004 the master bolts to the cover. So any swap there would require moving tge master /foot peg/brake pedal
As you see , the interest here would be chopper guys whom are hardtailing a sportster and using forward controls.

HD discontinued kickers on XL’s in the early 70’s?
Bronsons sportster was converted to kicker becz production people thought , and in those days likely correctly , that people would consider Bronson a wimp with estart.

Now what kit would fit a Buell? The 5 speed mechanicals “91 to ? .  The problem here is idk how much the cover is needed to support the kicker shaft . And if so , if they can be bolted to Buell cases .

IM(not so)HO
A Buell ain’t worth the $500 kit.

I believe there are some EIgnition kits available to allow push starts . What’s available fir HD idk. But I had Boyer electronic ignition on my BSA and it was kick start .

Thank you for all that solid info!

[oldironnow]

Fatfatboy wrote

Interesting.
 For race application less weight or just the cool factor?
In a racing application I would think it would take a hefty fella to kickstart a high performance sporty.
One of those wheel starters would seem the way to go over the leg cranker.

Looks like it’s available for 91-2003, 04-05 and 07 and up.
The 04-05 models had horrible carb issues. I’m thinking kickback on those. Just make sure your health insurance is up to date.
91-03 makes since but I’m not sure on the flubber mounts.
They make for ugly choppers.

I could see this on an old school chopper or bobber for the youngins.

I rode a kick only ironhead for ten years when I was young but now, no thank you. My knees can’t take the kickback.
I own a 74 XLCH that was kick only until someone added a starter to it.
I think I only used the kicker once.
Give me the button please.

There's some serious gravity in your cautions.
This is about making some serious modifications to the Buell if I ever get away from working for the man.

[oldironnow]

I seem to remember a CW article, maybe Dave Edwards' days, when there was an effort to make a kick HD (Dyna?), and they had to mount a magneto to deal with the EFI issue.

The kicking wasn't generating enough current to get the ECM happy enough to allow all the safeties to come off and light up the party.

Low fuel pressure. Low volts. Spark not allowed.

I originally parked the Buell in 2014-ish due to a worsening 'rough start' issue.

I couldn't figure it out.  The starter would engage, and more and more often, after a couple of cranks and a couple of stumbles at firing, the starter would disengage, stop and the fuel pump would prime again... 'whhhiiiiinnnneeee'.....

It seemed like a an intermittent open circuit somewhere. Vibration from the cranking? Checked pins and wires over and over. Bought some induction control parts and swapped them out. Tried to let in a fuel pressure gauge to check the pressure.

The last thing I did was pull the fuel pump assembly. Started to replace the filters and considered replacing the pump when life got seriously fucking crazy.  Set the pump aside in a pan that day. A shaft of afternoon sunlight caught the whole thing at a high angle and I noticed a little nick in an internal fuel line on the assembly......."Huh..."

The bike got buried in coveralls and stuff and time....

I was desperate to ride again in 2019. Just went and bought an entire pump assembly from St. Paul HD. Slammed it in there. Fired right up.

The nick was growing over time and lowering the fuel PSI to just below the 50 PSI threshold to allow firing.

I would like a different kind of Buell, and I was thinking a pulling the starter to use the space for a horizontal shock as run in the current ZX-10R. Hence, the kicker.  But I respect the kickback, and I was thinking it would only work if the heads got a pair of those push-button pressure releases that I saw once a long time ago.

This is all just a lot of effin' chatter, but I am doing the due diligence in daydreaming.




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[oldironnow]

Not what I was remembering, but relevant.

https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/2004/1/1/project-100-part-three-conclusion


"Dave's not here, man."

[hacksaw]

edwards was looking for a 100th anniversary top handlebar clamp.
idk if he ever found one.

[whatarush]

motogrady wrote

Maybe push starting will work, efi wise.  Seems to me if you pushed enough, like enough to get the lights coming on, maybe so.

Not sure about newer bikes. but I once turned the ignition switch on my 07 zx10 past off to parking lights on. When I got back to the bike the battery was to dead to start it. Luckily I was on a slight incline and was able to pop start it.

[hacksaw]

Man, what a rush that must have been!

[motogrady]

whatarush wrote

motogrady wrote

Maybe push starting will work, efi wise.  Seems to me if you pushed enough, like enough to get the lights coming on, maybe so.

Not sure about newer bikes. but I once turned the ignition switch on my 07 zx10 past off to parking lights on. When I got back to the bike the battery was to dead to start it. Luckily I was on a slight incline and was able to pop start it.

I know I felt better the first time I pushed my 79.
Dead battery in the middle of freakin nowhere,
first Honda 750 I had that was kickless, had a kind of mental block on pushing it.  

Maybe it was all those 70s/80s 2 stroke dirt bikes.
Dirt bikes, pushing them was, well, you push started them
a lot.  

Street bikes I dunno.  
I just never pushed the other side a lot.

[Fatfatboy]

hacksaw wrote

No. Not really.
You are assuming Buells are efi.
I dare say the Harley motored ones are not and don’t have fuel pumps.

Buell’s do have fuel pumps
I hear mine every time I turn the key on.


On the kickstarting an EFI bike with a dead battery. I’m my experience you can’t. At least not a Royal Enfield.
Batter shot craps on my 2016. I couldn’t get it to start by the kicker.
Rolling it down a hill can because the stator puts out enough juice to spark the EFI.

[motogrady]

Fatfatboy wrote

hacksaw wrote

No. Not really.
You are assuming Buells are efi.
I dare say the Harley motored ones are not and don’t have fuel pumps.

Buell’s do have fuel pumps
I hear mine every time I turn the key on.


On the kickstarting an EFI bike with a dead battery. I’m my experience you can’t. At least not a Royal Enfield.
Batter shot craps on my 2016. I couldn’t get it to start by the kicker.
Rolling it down a hill can because the stator puts out enough juice to spark the EFI.

Well, it’s possible.
Suzuki is doing it with their 450 MX bike. Have been for quite awhile. How, I don’t know.
It does look a bit sketchy, sounding old school almost.  
“Place the pIston at TDC, it starts most of the time”.
Yea.  Who knows, maybe they have a place to hold 2 double A batteries.  

It sucks, kicking a hot, open class dirt bike.
Especially a 4 stroke.

Here’s the bike that’s going to vie for this years AMA Supercross.  Kick start with efi.

https://www.dirtrider.com/story/dirt-bikes/suzuki-rm-z450-technical-information-2023/