KTM Woes

[hacksaw]

Oh I am not. I actually don’t care .
What I am trivializing is that  idea that HD putting money into racing baggers in Europe is going to help American consumers want to buy overpriced Harley-Davison’s .
It’s just not going to happen.

What’s being trivialized are the people like me that have stuck with HD thru the AMF years , the eagle flying alone,
DarkCustoms And even into the new era of Boutique super stores.
Harley survived and built its reputation on American freedom riders. The Great  American Freedom Machine, if u were around back then .
Sturgis type stuff. Open road  . Country fair flat trackers.
Choppers. Etc etc. the envy of bikers all over the world.
Harley has abandoned its roots. The ceo is milking his customers. Turned euro woke. So he has lost me and many others. My generation ends it. There is nothing to pass down to the next. Even if the legacy could survive . Harley does not market an affordable bike.
Maybe that’s sounds trivial to you.
Forget elitist euro racing. Give the American people a motorcycle they can afford. And lower your prices msrp and service!

[motogrady]

There’s a lot to be said on those points Hack.

Thing is, how are they gonna be able to compete with a place like India?
Guys and kids making gas tanks for probably $5 an hour.
No bennies.
No regulations to speak of.
Everything from steel to plastic to electricity they
probably half a cost as what the guys in York pay.
 
Wheres the give?
Where’s the sacrifice to make a less expensive American product?
Those execs aren’t gonna cut their pay.
The guys on the assembly line won’t either.
From what I understand the mothership already outsource
a big part of their bikes overseas already.  

Are tariffs the answer?

[hacksaw]

Idk. Ask ktm.

I don’t think bagger racing is much of a panacea .
Harley lost millions on mv augusta . That should come out of corporate pay . So fire the fools whom engineered Harley’s version of afghan withdrawal.
Unfortunate there is no electoral college to vote out the scum. Stockholders individually don’t have the clout. But voting by taking your bizz elsewhere is what I am doing.
I mean they could have been racing MV.

As I have said in the recent past , cut the wasted overhead. Tariffs? Idk. Tariffs saved Harley from Japanese dumping their tin on Americans. But that was in bikes, not parts or raw materials. I don’t think .

Expand service work, cut back on models , cut back on boutiques. Turn the jewelry cases into service bays.
Hd dealers need to be primarily shops , not stores.
Come up with a model machine that everyday people can identify with. You mentioned India . RE builds bikes their people love . So can Harley.
Race models that can be out in showrooms.
Give us DP bikes and motocrossers and back them high profile on American circuits.
And take a clue from BMW and actually partake in its own heritage. Meaning service and restore vintage Harley’s . Cut the lip service . Coming out with a neo roadking based on a 1960 pan and then telling customers “we don’t work on real panheads  “ is ludicrous.
Service , service , service.
People will be willing to pay for a quality  service experience. One isn’t going to send their bike to India for a valve  job

[hacksaw]

Look at vintage ads.
What do they usually proclaim ?
SALES and SERVICE.

[oldironnow]

1. Should've kept the VRod?
Not according to your belief system, hack'.
It came from the VR1000 and spent a decade in open-air beta-testing on the AMA circuit. They never had to guts to bring a modern sportbike to market. Why? See next.

2. HD is in bad place because their customers, and a significant percentage of the company itself, never let HD become new, and whenever they HAD to evolve, they had to jump through engineering and style hoops to make it look old.

3. As Grado said, HD can't compete on input costs with most of Asia, and like the rest of America, they've gotten by on the efficiencies of our capitalist system. As Global efficiencies increase, there's only so much juice HD and the USA can squeeze from that apple - (see HD's production move to Asia)

4. The idea that they should service Panheads is great; I love it. It feels warm and cuddly - "Look, we never quit on you or your bike."
It's very similar to what a Honda CEO said in the '80s at a press conference. Something like - "We will support parts for every model forever." It was shocking in light of the Japanese market before then, and I remember feeling more confident about Honda product.

But #4 only works if HD is flush enough to afford the expense of more training and more parts. And 'flush' HD is not.
Also, to a very small amount for Panheads, it's a business activity for HD that increases their problem of decades old bikes that keep people from buying.

It's all those barely used bikes from the last 30 years - that are all essentially the same except for paint and chrome - sitting around, languishing in garages, and slowly drooling into the marketplace as people age-out.

Massively lower prices, or massively increase income to keep HD alive as it is.

[oldironnow]

I believe this thread is about KTM?  


https://superbikeplanet.com/story/1345/-black-friday-for-ktm-and-motogp

[hacksaw]

1. Should've kept the VRod?
Not according to your belief system, hack'.
It came from the VR1000 and spent a decade in open-air beta-testing on the AMA circuit. They never had to guts to bring a modern sportbike to market. Why? See next.

My belief system?

Anyway , that's pretty accusatory commentary .
And now you expect bagger GP racing is some how going to Accomplish this?
Now I am no fan of Eric  Buell, but wasn’t Buells suppose to be sport bikes?
And regardless of the fact porche was invoked with that VR
Harley did an even stupider thing with buying mb Augusta which are sport bikes, no?

[hacksaw]

2. HD is in bad place because their customers, and a significant percentage of the company itself, never let HD become new, and whenever they HAD to evolve, they had to jump through engineering and style hoops to make it look old.

That doesn’t make sense .
Doesn’t every company?
Style hoops? Harley invented the style.
Why would they change that?
They did have the Evolution motor. lol.
Electric bikes and the pan America are evolved?
They suck , yes,but prove Harley is not stagnant, misguided yes. But not stagnant.

To be continued…

[hacksaw]

My BMW dealer is in the middle of opening a good size ktm dealership .
He has loaded up on ktm stock
He can’t discount these bikes .
Wow.

[hacksaw]

3. As Grado said, HD can't compete on input costs with most of Asia, and like the rest of America, they've gotten by on the efficiencies of our capitalist system. As Global efficiencies increase, there's only so much juice HD and the USA can squeeze from that apple - (see HD's production move to Asia).

I disagree
HD has got by based on the simple fact they make what people are buying.
Which is the whole point. They are getting away from what people are wanting to buy.
I don’t see Chinese Harley’s   getting import relief from Trump. But the issue is overall economy can float all boats.
But only if they are in port.
Harley needs to reconnect with America. Not “the world”
GP bagger tacing is not going to get 20+ y olds into showrooms. Right now HD is squeezing  lemons.

[hacksaw]

4. The idea that they should service Panheads is great; I love it. It feels warm and cuddly - "Look, we never quit on you or your bike."
It's very similar to what a Honda CEO said in the '80s at a press conference. Something like - "We will support parts for every model forever." It was shocking in light of the Japanese market before then, and I remember feeling more confident about Honda product.

Panhead was just a genetic reference to all Harley’s.
Did Honda keep its word? No.
But I am not just talking parts. Service is key!
Of course Harley quit on us. Don’t lie. Just say they rediscovered it whatever.
BMW has.

[hacksaw]

But #4 only works if HD is flush enough to afford the expense of more training and more parts. And 'flush' HD is not.
Also, to a very small amount for Panheads, it's a business activity for HD that increases their problem of decades old bikes that keep people from buying.

It's all those barely used bikes from the last 30 years - that are all essentially the same except for paint and chrome - sitting around, languishing in garages, and slowly drooling into the marketplace as people age-out.

Massively lower prices, or massively increase income to keep HD alive as it is.

I agree . But how is
Bagger racing going to help cash flow. It won’t!

[motogrady]

Ya this thread has gotten off the rails.
And I’m largely to blame, apologizes.

But, before getting back to orange,
to recap, imho HD needs to sell new inventory.
I’m hearing they have a ton of 2024s in stock with 2025s on the verge of being delivered.

Are the bagger things the magic wand, no.
Could it help with selling some new stuff, yeah, I think so.

KTM, on the other hand, WTF?

I saw where they, KTM, are selling off the 50% or whatever how much stock in MV they own.  Not that they want to, but eh. Apparently the guy that used to own MV is thinking about buying it back.  The 51% that is.
They just dropped backing a big European dual sport championship.  They say their Motogp teams are not in danger, that that money is already allocated, and believe it or not, actually brings in funds thru advertising.
Then again, some say KTM doesn’t sell hi performance street bikes so what the hell are they doing in motogp anyway.

It’s just hard to understand how they got themselves into this quandary.  I mean, wtf was management doing anyway?  Sleeping?

Anyway, I’ve noticed a few threads on other sites, dirt sites, where guys are starting to second guess buying another KTM.  Not that it isn’t one of, for sure, and maybe the best 250 and 450 dirt bike out of the crate.

And that my friends, is a very serious issue for Orange.

[hacksaw]

I don’t think the thread is off track .
Talking about comparative brands in the industry is all part of it. But Ktm seems to be dropping racing in hopes of bettering their financials.
Harley should pay attention to what Ktm is having for issues.

[hacksaw]

And as I said earlier   , my bmw dealer is built a stand alone ktm dealership . He has hordes of new ktm bikes.
Its a tuff way to start out

[motogrady]

Getting ugly.  

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1061684/1/ktms-motogp-project-under-threat-under-reorganisation-measures