KTM Woes

[Fatfatboy]

KTM has announced a temporary hault in production in Austria to cut inventory causing a layoff off 300 people.
They were running consistent growth for 12 years put now they are in a tuff spot. Overproduction and quality issues are being to blame as well as the COVID thing.

During COVID the demand became great so production was ramped up. Then COVID stopped and bikes sat on the floor.
The mass production also brought in quality issues.

I started looking into Pierer Mobility AG and discovered they own a lot of other companies. I knew they own Husqvarna and Gas Gas but they also own a good junk of MvAgusta as well as a suspension company, a couple bicycle companies and a software company.

If you were Pierer Mobility which company would you sell off to save the biggest European motorcycle maker?
If they are going to keep China sourcing should they only do it on one motorcycle brand to sell them at a competitive price and which one?

https://search.app/CUQQKb4EkxSAaDjF6

[oldironnow]

Excellent questions.
I’ve been following their stumble and thinking on it.

https://motorcyclesports.net/ktm-ag-tightens-its-belt-unable-to-pay-salaries-or-christmas-bonuses/

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/1060779/1/ktm-attempts-stave-bankruptcy-restructuring

As described to me, KTM had earned a reputation for selling motorcycles as if the customer was doing the beta testing for the factory.
- there will be problems, but once you get them sorted, great bike -
And then this year, it got worse, with the camshafts made out of chocolate.
Difficult dealers
Difficult regional reps
Difficult company attitude on customer service
Add in the Insectoid styling…
They have said they plan to bleed down excess-stock over two years.
IMO, that’s like Osborne-ing themselves, it’s too long.
Look for CFMoto on the big grid next season.

To repost a text to a friend :

“It sounds like a last second heave from mid-court.
There’s so much I don’t know about business, but it sounds rational.
Stop production.
Layoff ‘everyone’
Bleed down product backlog.
See what the future brings…
The damage will be intense, with massive scar tissue in a formerly sparkling company.
There is no free lunch here.
And maybe even no lunch.
Loss of knowledge/people.
But the market moves forward while they live frozen in ‘carbonite’.
They may reemerge as a small Austrian company that makes a small range of orange dirt and street bikes.
In that case, get it over with NOW. Sell all the product today at massive losses.
Bank that write-down now.
Get it over with and also disrupt your competitor’s marketplace.
Further, all those bikes will need parts and maintenance right now, not starting three years from now. Cash flow.
Spin-off/sell GasGas and Husky (i’d want to keep Husky as the street line, but, everything must go. Name your price.)
Keep a pathetic finger-hold in MotoGP.
One GP team.
Sell their other spots to BMW and QJ and CF.
Moto3 bikes continue per contract, but freeze development.
Dorna needs Moto3 KTM.
This will be a huge inflection point in GP history.
Just like the rise of the Japanese in the ‘70s, it could be China’s and India’s time.
Harley could be waiting to pounce on a price-point in the wreckage.

[Fatfatboy]

What you stated explains why I’ve seen the little KTMs with deep discounts at the big box dealership the last time I was in there last summer. I came pretty close to nabbing one up but they would only finance them then they stuck some extra fees on so I dodged a bullet it seems.

If’in I was Pierer I’d pull out of the big show of MOTOGP as soon as possible. Doesn’t make sense to stay there if you’re not going to sell high performance bikes.  
I’m guessing it’s probably cheaper than having to give all the money back to the sponsors that are plastered all over the bike and riders.
Remaining in the lower classes makes some sense since they sell bikes near that caliber.

I hope they can turn it around and make it work again.

And yes, a spot for Harley would be awesome if they can actually build a worthy bike and also sell it.

[hacksaw]

Today’s HD as a corporation sucks.
Forget racing and lower the price of your bikes and get rid half the dealers staff that responds to web ad inquiries but have no actual knowledge of the particular bike in question .    Even their chat bots have more intelligence.
Will racing on Sunday sell motor clothes on Monday?
Well no , they aren’t open on Mondays .

KTM seemed to have some interesting dirt bikes yeas back
But these days it mostly junk plastic crap.

[motogrady]

Fatfatboy wrote

What you stated explains why I’ve seen the little KTMs with deep discounts at the big box dealership the last time I was in there last summer. I came pretty close to nabbing one up but they would only finance them then they stuck some extra fees on so I dodged a bullet it seems.

If’in I was Pierer I’d pull out of the big show of MOTOGP as soon as possible. Doesn’t make sense to stay there if you’re not going to sell high performance bikes.  
I’m guessing it’s probably cheaper than having to give all the money back to the sponsors that are plastered all over the bike and riders.
Remaining in the lower classes makes some sense since they sell bikes near that caliber.

I hope they can turn it around and make it work again.

And yes, a spot for Harley would be awesome if they can actually build a worthy bike and also sell it.

As far as HD……….

You know they have the money.
One wonders, how could they get over the behemoth issue.
So big they are clumsy.
I mean, to run motogp it seems you have to change with the program at like, every track.

I dunno.   Are there any more Dick O’briens out there any more?   A guy HD could be funded by them and just go rouge?  Like a Sunkworks with the jets thing.
Remember when Ford made those GP cars and won the championship, I can’t remember which one, only to disband the team the next year?

One wonders it they would sell a bunch of bikes overseas
if they got into it, or run into a wall of resentment.

“bloody yanks……what they doin comin ‘ere”.

[hacksaw]

What makes you think they have the money?
And if they do, how about lowering the price of their bikes?
O’Brien didn’t have to deal with todays tech or regulatory BS

[motogrady]

hacksaw wrote

What makes you think they have the money?
And if they do, how about lowering the price of their bikes?
O’Brien didn’t have to deal with todays tech or regulatory BS

Well, it’s a big company.  
They are getting a good price for their bikes.
And all the other stuff they sell.  
They are paying the woke ceo they have, 2 million in salary.
On top of the 10 million in other compensation.
And that’s just him.

Jochen Zeitz
Executive Compensation
Data Year:
2024
2023
2022
Select Other Years
Trend Analysis
As President and Chief Executive Officer at HARLEY-DAVIDSON INC, Jochen Zeitz made $11,953,280 in total compensation. Of this total $1,948,000 was received as a salary, $3,093,600 was received as a bonus, $0 was received in stock options, $6,500,029 was awarded as stock and $411,651 came from other types of compensation. This information is according to proxy statements filed for the 2023 fiscal year.

This guy alone is pullin about $500,000.00 every month.

One wonders what they’ve spent on all the electric crap, that went nowhere, in the last 10 years.

Na, if they wanted to, it seems to me they could afford it.
I mean, what’s another 20 million a year to a company that size.  

[hacksaw]

He is an azzhole.
He should be fired
And Harley should cut way back on everything.
And until they do , I am not buying anymore new Harley’s
.
The market is saturated . Fuck Brazil and China.
Bring manufacturing back her and cut the size of dealerships and the size of dealers . And learn to fix old Harley’s . Cut bagger racing. It’s hideous.
Drag racing and flat track ok. Even support vintage TT.
But come on, euro racing? That’s BS.
Maybe the could seriously put an Mx bike together .
But the first thing is get rid of that woke  sneaker guy.
I quit buying from hd dealers bcz of him .

[motogrady]

I think the biggest, well, one of the biggest, issues with HD
not being able to compete in motogp is their marriage to the VTwin.  

No matter what they do, the VTwin will not hang with the inline or v 4.  Especially without liquid cooling.
It just ain’t happening.

V Twin is Harley.
And they aren’t changing that.  
At least they realize that, thankfully.

[hacksaw]

Vrod derivatives coukd have very well kicked ass.
But for what purpose does motogp serve?
I mean for Harley sales?
It certainly not going to bring me back to Harley . Indian hit away from btwins and went bankrupt

Best thing for HD is circle the wagons and concentrate on what people want to buy.
They  are going to have to become a bigger player in servicing Harley’s of all years. As BMW does.
Although BMW is getting a bit to carried away with new models. Some thst are sweet I must admit.
The Harley market is saturated . They been selling 100,000s of thousand bike for years. People aren’t throwing them away like 60’s pot metal jap bikes.
How many people do u think are going to spend 24k on a new low rider when they already own 2?
There are very few fat2 guys who have that money to blow.
But there are thousands of younger folks whom can buy 6k used Harley’s and have use for reasonably priced factory backed mechanics!
As I say. Motogp racing is not a winner for Harley Davidson . Triumph developed tge 400 singles and Mx racers. Those type of bikes actually get in front of people. They are seen . And tge 400 is accessible to normal folks.
Who is at motogp trackside thsts going to go buy a Harley
From the local dealer here in the state's. ?
Nobody.

[motogrady]

hacksaw wrote

Vrod derivatives coukd have very well kicked ass.
But for what purpose does motogp serve?
I mean for Harley sales?
It certainly not going to bring me back to Harley . Indian hit away from btwins and went bankrupt

Best thing for HD is circle the wagons and concentrate on what people want to buy.
They  are going to have to become a bigger player in servicing Harley’s of all years. As BMW does.
Although BMW is getting a bit to carried away with new models. Some thst are sweet I must admit.
The Harley market is saturated . They been selling 100,000s of thousand bike for years. People aren’t throwing them away like 60’s pot metal jap bikes.
How many people do u think are going to spend 24k on a new low rider when they already own 2?
There are very few fat2 guys who have that money to blow.
But there are thousands of younger folks whom can buy 6k used Harley’s and have use for reasonably priced factory backed mechanics!
As I say. Motogp racing is not a winner for Harley Davidson . Triumph developed tge 400 singles and Mx racers. Those type of bikes actually get in front of people. They are seen . And tge 400 is accessible to normal folks.
Who is at motogp trackside thsts going to go buy a Harley
From the local dealer here in the state's. ?
Nobody.

I agree.   All good points.  
Maybe when all those guys sit around, wondering, how can we increase the shareholders money, and management compensation, the above issues come to the forefront.
It’s just they’ve been wrong, the choices they’ve made bombed.  
Too much woke has infiltrated their brains.  

Hopefully they realized what the problem is,
and, like Willie G did, are just getting back to what they do best.  Make big VTwins, and rely on the reputation, the lifestyle, they’ve owned since, well, forever.  

Which brings us to the dilemma they now face.

The present.

All the things you mention.  

If theyre already oversold here in the USA,
and the next generation is not in the market, hell,
half of them are gonna inherit the old man’s bike,
what’s HD gonna do?

The answer just might be what they apparently are cooking up as we speak.  

And that is, go global.
Go Motogp racing.  
Screw making a new motor, new bikes, along with hiring new riders.

Just make a new Class!

Make it as American as can be!

The MotoGP Baggers Class!
Hopefully a class as un woke as can be.  
Fun. Sexy. Still fast. Something the average Euro or Asian
can actually own and share with his wife or girlfriend.
Ride Mt. Fuji or The Isle of Man on the bike you saw on the tele last month! An American bike!

There’s what, 350 million humans in the USA.
And what, about 7 billion humans on the planet, many
of which know nothing of MotoAmerica.
But do follow Motogp.

“Ahhh so, moto San, we sell 350 million chop chop knives last year from my factory.  Me take one black Ultra for me and one white Road King for wife. We ride to Suzuka next week for MotoGp race!

Yep.  There might be one hellova bonus coming up down the line for whoever suggested taking the baggers to Europe.

[hacksaw]

You can’t have it both ways .
Moto GP (🤢) , going global ( they already have)
And going back to building vtwins as you suggest.
No new motors? How can one race GP with no new motors?

Kids are not buying 40k$ baggers no matter how much they are raced.
Kids today would just as soon try and salvage some  junk 400 Kawi. Living in the mom’s basement while being ripped off by student loans .
Some may eventually move up . But won’t be bagger racing . Harley doesn’t make a bike for that market . Not since they killed off the real xl883. Meanwhile RE , triumph and the japs are . Remember we mentioned the Zman. That was 883 racing. Got lots of people into Harley’s.
But now Even grey beards like me are scaling back .
Smaller , lighter , budget friendly bikes.
I love Harley’s . I have had more than I can remember.
But Harley Davidson as it exists today sucks!
A bagger GP is not going to win guys like me back .
It won’t inspire another generation of kids.
Harley has lost its mystique .its Rebel with maybe a cause.
Its now rich peoples shit.  
Can they get it back ? Perhaps. But not with bagger GP .
They need to reconnect with mainstream America. They won’t as some motorcycle form of the United Nations.

[oldironnow]

First off - There are many HDs ridden to every motorcycle race, in America and all around the world. You can see them in person, and on the video feeds when they pan the venue.

As a matter of survival, Bloor at Triumph made it a point of never fronting a race team.

I think it has served them well, playing their hand cautiously.

The supplying of engines for the Moto2 class is brilliant - name in the game at quantified costs (or profits).

Running the MX teams is a must - it's exactly what the machines are made for. They have to prove efficacy, and the bikes are being used exactly as intended. Unlike trying to convince someone to buy an R6 for commuting to class.

So I think those two activities don't violate Bloor's commandment.

All that said, motogrady's take on HD getting involved in the MotoGP program makes sense.

I would replace the word 'sexy' with 'ballsy'. That's the impression I get when I see those 600-plus pound beasts get hustled along a track. it seems to be an outrageous violation of simple physics. America should be associated with Ballsy.

There's a shit-ton (metric and standard) of eyeballs on the entire MotoGP show. The show wants HD's status, and HD needs buyers, and there's a hell-of-a-lot more humans outside of the United States than inside, and now there's wealth world-wide, ready to be mined.

MotoGP has a Ducati-spec electric bike class. Perhaps they are about the add an HD class or a Heavy Class... I get sense it's already peaked here in it's current form, so give it a run of a few years overseas.

Cut costs and overhead here, and push out into the world.


.

[oldironnow]

And spend any HD savings on quietly buying up used HDs and crushing them !

Get rid of the over-supply! It's killing them !

Sacrilege

[hacksaw]

Thats just silly.
And you expect people that ride to moto GP to then sell their bikes and buy what?
What exactly are they going to buy?
The zampac 883 racing series brought people into Harley showrooms and they bought sportsters.
The entry level Harley.
It was stock spec racing .

Bagger  racing doesn’t have the race prepped bikes for sale in your local dealer .
And if they did, what would one cost?

They have actually had bagger racing the last couple of years. Did you buy one? The way you talk you must at least have one on order.
Both you guys. I expect to see you soon on at least stage 3 new baggers .
Thats if you believe your own bs.
 

[motogrady]

You think people are gonna buy baggers and actually race them?

The average aren’t gonna line up for anything.
Well, maybe the next drink at the bar.  
They want to be part of it, the illusion that they are or could scrape the pegs half way around Daytona wide open.

lol.

It’s the sideline crowd, the masses, the coke a cola crowd
that they’re after.  

Not the 50 or so actual racers out there.  

[hacksaw]

Never going to happen.
But , u can start to prove me wrong by buying one yourself.  

They are not going to sell baggers to kids drinking cokes.
Put the kool aid down , Grady.
Bagger racing sucks. The whole pretense is anti racing .
Why do you think Cadillac never ran NASCAR?

The public wants entry level bikes and Harley does not make one. Wasting time and money with bagger raving when they should be bringing actual Harley Davidson’s to today’s youth. Bring back a real Nightster . Or produce a decent DP bike or a moto crosser.
Future of Harley lies in younger buyers . Moto cross, Supercross and flat track .
Drag racing .
Change out those azz klown bags for knobbies !

[motogrady]

Hey if I buy a bagger it ain’t gonna be for racing.  

Thing is, it’s, bagger racing, is taking off more so than most any other venue.  

Both here and overseas.

Why?

Myself, it’s because the guys, and their girls somewhat,
want to identify with it.  

Do they want to actually put their life on the line for it?
Hell no.  They gotta work tomorrow.

But to have a bike that looks and sounds like the one
that they see on tv, that’s good enough for them.  

And really, where’s the harm in that?

I mean, why do guys play golf?
They have not one chance in a million
to actually win a tournament or whatever.

But that don’t stop them from buying the clubs, gear and outfits the top pros use.  

[hacksaw]

Thanks for making my point.
People see pro golfers, and they can go out and buy the same exact clubs.

They can’t go out and buy the same exact bagger.
So there is no real connection except wannabe. Again, the point being that’s a waste of Harley’s money if the intent is to sell more bikes. Maybe that will work Europe overseas whatever. I could  careless about overseas , that’s Obama Biden kind of thinking just , just not my bag.    

How did Harley’s VFR race program work out?
What about that funky x?r down draft sportster HD thought the euro market would help make it a huge seller ?
All a waste. I do think they should  have stuck  with vrod based bikes. They blew that with the street 500 and 750. I think they should have stuck with the 750 . The 500 kinda watered it down .

But again I bring up the old 883 race deal. And I believe Harley was offering incentives of some sort .
But there can be no denying having a racer that one could buy from the local dealership led to huge sales.
This is history . Ignore it at your peril.
American racing for American motor sales.

I
Do apologize as I thought you claimed bagger riders were coming to bagger races and being incentivized to buy more baggers! So I figured you are going to buy a bagger based upon the bagger racers.
Bagger racing is the future of bankruptcy. If not bankruptcy then Chinese take over  like happened to Volvo and is about to happen with ktm .

[motogrady]

Don’t trivialize the wannabe factor.